Curse

Morty · Nov 21, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

a ranger spike hits for 150+ with my ranger

Yes, but not 150 dps, just in one second (if that fast). dps is over time.

Hasn't anyone heard of a pressure build? I think those can be harder to heal through than a spike.

Ensign · Nov 22, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Poison Arrow is bad because Apply Poison does the job better, without the use of an elite. If you're using either skill it's to spread poison around, right? Apply Poison is going to be identical on the energy after ~3 uses, and just keeps getting better from there. You can fire off other attack skills while spreading poison around with Apply, like Debil Shot. Unless it has gotten a buff, Poison Arrow also deals less damage than a normal arrow, so 'freeing up a prep' really doesn't matter since you'd still be doing comparable damage.

The only time Poison Arrow shines is against a low number of targets without removal, where you want to poison a couple targets then switch back to damage mode. Is Poison Arrow really the elite you want in that case, though?

Basically it's an elite answer to a non-elite problem, and not a particularly good one at that. It's not useless, but it's also not what you're going to want in a large majority of cases.

Peace,
-CxE

Morty · Nov 22, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

I'm not using it to 'spread poison around,' I'm just looking for an easy damage add that doesnt limit my actions like quickshot does.

Quote:

freeing up a prep' really doesn't matter since you'd still be doing comparable damage.

You think that the damage reduction (which is not mentioned in the skills description) is so great that it is comparable to not having a damage prep at all? How about when you consider that I wont only be shooting "poison arrow attacks?" If there really is some sort of damage reduction, my regular attacks would still give me more damage than if I took Apply Poison instead of a better prep. I think, unless your job is to spread poison, apply poison is one of the worst ranger preps.

Quote:

Basically it's an elite answer to a non-elite problem

And what problem is that? All I'm looking for is more damage.

VGJustice · Nov 22, 2005, 04:19 AM // 04:19

I actually found a use for PA in PvE. I made a R/Me with Fragility, and set my Wilderness Survival to 0. Cast Fragility, hit with PA, wait 5 seconds, hit again. You get a slight damage boost from Fragility and 10 seconds worth of poison, and an extra bang when the poison ends. Better if you stack status effects, as always, but this was effective.

But, seriously, PA is just a bad idea in PvP. Mend Ailment + Divine Boon. If you put anything else on that character, you just gave me a free healing spell, thanks!

entropy · Nov 22, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

The thing is why run a sub-par build? Every build should have some type of goal in mind in the team. Damage go quickshot. Conditions apply poison+crippling shot. There are better ways to do things so why run it? Whats the use for poison arrow? 8dps?

Eonwe · Nov 22, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

All I'm looking for is more damage.

So you decided to go with poison arrow? Oh boy. There are a plethora of better options at your disposal, please use them.

MSecorsky · Nov 22, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

You know... just for farting around in the CA, I take Poison arrow, Hunters, Dual, Distracting, Kindle, Whirling, Trolls and a rez. Textbook or uber-build? No, I'm sure of it. However, I eat most squishies, including monks, and eles are a walking buffet. Warriors also entertain me as they die, for the most part... hit that running bugger with hunters and PA... ah, I entertain easily.

Anyhow, there's nothing wrong with PA. Enjoy it.

a cadet · Nov 22, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

The reason why so many people even use the Poison Arrow elite is no doubt because it is probably one of the first ranger elites you can capture in the PVE mode of the game.

With that said, the only case where it might have a real use is when you already have a preparation. The only one i can think of right now that might force the use of Poison Arrow is Choking Gas; but in most builds people have mentioned in this thread i feel that they would do better with Apply Poison as the preparation.

Neo-LD · Nov 22, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

plain and simple, poison only does 8 dps which is fairly insignificant. also, the poison is easily removed and at the same time as being removed it will give back more hp than the dmg it inflicted. (for example, mend condition wil remove poison and give more than 100 hp) meaning that your poison woul dhave to be there for mor than 12s to have an actual positive dmg impact. now, we are debating whether or not poison arrow can even break even at 0, so i doubt that we can be comparing it to awesome elites like quick shot that allow for the huge dps good rangers are capable of.

JR · Nov 22, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Your first sentence implies that it is easily removed. The third says you wouldn't remove it (so I would do the full poison damage).

I'm saying its easily removed, but it's not on my list of priorities as a monk because it really doesn't do anything terrible. And for an elite thats pretty sucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I understand what you are trying to say, but I just wanted to point out that if you actually get some heals off, then ranger spike is actually quite easy to heal through (and save the target).

You have been playing against some wack ass ranger spike.

Ensign · Nov 23, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

The reason why so many people even use the Poison Arrow elite is no doubt because it is probably one of the first ranger elites you can capture in the PVE mode of the game.

I think there's a bigger issue than that, and it's how most players end up with the builds they use. I don't think most players look over complete skill lists and make builds based on that - they play with the skills they have, and modify their build as they find new skills. Elites are not acquired until you're close to the end of the game, likely after most players are already comfortable with their characters and skillsets.

The trouble here is that many elites, and *particularly* Ranger elites, are extremely powerful but rather narrow. You can't capture your first elite, Marksman's Wager, drop it into your build, and expect it to do a whole lot.

The strength of Poison Arrow to the average player isn't the power of the skill, but how seemlessly it fits onto his skill bar. He can capture the skill and put it in place of some other shot and the guy will continue to play just the way he used to, except now he can apply some DoT to his target. Is this a strong use of his elite slot? Of course not. But the skill is seemless and reasonably strong (stronger than most non-elites, at least), so it's exactly what people want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I'm not using it to 'spread poison around,' I'm just looking for an easy damage add that doesnt limit my actions like quickshot does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The only time Poison Arrow shines is against a low number of targets without removal, where you want to poison a couple targets then switch back to damage mode. Is Poison Arrow really the elite you want in that case, though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

You think that the damage reduction (which is not mentioned in the skills description)

Skill descriptions lie. Poison Arrows deal a bit over half normal damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

is so great that it is comparable to not having a damage prep at all?

If you're spreading poison, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

How about when you consider that I wont only be shooting "poison arrow attacks?"

Then I submit that there are other elites that are going to perform significantly better, Quick Shot foremost amongst them. I'm terribly unimpressed by an elite that only deals 8 DPS to 1-2 targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I think, unless your job is to spread poison, apply poison is one of the worst ranger preps.

I'd agree with this assessment, though I submit that the same sort of analysis will tell you the same thing about Poison Arrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

And what problem is that? All I'm looking for is more damage.

The 'applying pressure through distributed DoTs' problem. That's what the skill is good at, no?

You're using it as a way to get 'more damage' onto a single target, and I won't argue that it does that...only that it's a particularly *bad* tool for that job.

Peace,
-CxE

Morty · Nov 23, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Anyone have a decent quickshot build I can play around with in RA? I haven't used quickshot in a long time, so I forgot the build I used to use with it.

When I plugged it into my current build, removed TF, and tweaked the attributes, I wasn't terribly impressed. I'd like to give it another try though, so can anyone help me see what all the fuss is about? (remember, I'm not looking for a spiker here, I want someone who can pump out the damage, and not stop).

Neo-LD · Nov 23, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

quick shot is not a skill you can just plop into your skill bar and play regular ranger with, as ensign alluded to. if you were unimpressed, i am sure you were probably not using right.

the way to use quick shot is to fire a normal arrow, and immedeatly after the arrow leaves the bow hit quick shot and your ranger will shoot the next arrow very quickly. let your ranger fire anotehr regular arrow, and follow with an immedeate quick shot. Repeat this sequence many times. You will notice that your oerall rate of fire nearly doubled.

as you become more advanced with the qs build, you can substitute other arrow attacks like dual shot or penetrating shot in placeof where you were firing normal arrows, so an actual sequence might look like

(activate dmg prep) (enter TF)[repeat] dual -> qs -> debilitating -> qs -> penetrating -> qs [/repeat]

also, you should be watching your target, waiting to pounce on any easy interupts like signets and other 1+ second casts.

Iraqalypse Now · Nov 23, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

also, you can run other buffs on top of the preparation... the best ones are conjure flame + kindle arrows, and RTW + Judge's Insight. 13 expertise for a 2 energy quick shot is a must, and having a zealous bow to help out too is good.

Ensign · Nov 23, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Skill descriptions lie. Poison Arrows deal a bit over half normal damage.

Further testing with Poison Arrow reveals that the skill uses your Wilderness level as your Marksmanship level when calculating base arrow damage with this skill. In theory you can do some fun things with a 16 Wilderness Poison Arrow spammer, since he'd act just like a 16 Marks guy but without the attribute investment.

Peace,
-CxE

JR · Nov 23, 2005, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Wow, interesting. Good work Ensign.

Morty · Nov 23, 2005, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Further testing with Poison Arrow reveals that the skill uses your Wilderness level as your Marksmanship level when calculating base arrow damage with this skill. In theory you can do some fun things with a 16 Wilderness Poison Arrow spammer, since he'd act just like a 16 Marks guy but without the attribute investment.

Wow, no wonder I never noticed the damage decrease, I usually run at least 11 wild.

Thanks for the tips on quickshot. I remember now that that's how I used to do it (normal shot, quicshot, normal shot, quicshot...). I was using kindle+conjure flame+vampiric as my damage buff.

Pharalon · Nov 23, 2005, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Further testing with Poison Arrow reveals that the skill uses your Wilderness level as your Marksmanship level when calculating base arrow damage with this skill. In theory you can do some fun things with a 16 Wilderness Poison Arrow spammer, since he'd act just like a 16 Marks guy but without the attribute investment.

Peace,
-CxE

Unfortunately further further testing reveals that you still need to meet the bow requirements to get full damage. So the base bow damage is determined by your marks level, while all the damage equations use Wilderness Survival. So unfortunately you still can't make a Marksless bow user.

Laurelin Goldtree · Nov 23, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

It does affect frenzy. It affects a lot of warrior stuff, i.e. stances, shouts, attack skills, skills, and the like. At 14 expertise your frenzy costs 2 energy.

It shouldn't...I'd know very well that for my ranger, 5 energy for her skills really means 2 but for her secondary, 5 energy means 5 energy...

NatalieD · Nov 23, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurelin Goldtree

It shouldn't...I'd know very well that for my ranger, 5 energy for her skills really means 2 but for her secondary, 5 energy means 5 energy...

Is your secondary warrior? Expertise doesn't affect spells, which includes most of the skills from the other four classes.